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revredfish
03-12-2011, 08:34 AM
I am curious how many people would like to have their fish selection done for them? We have the possibility of using a program that automatically takes your weighed in fish and determines the best way to divide them: slam + one category or two categories.

It is an all or nothing program - either everyone uses this function (shuffle) or everyone has to manually select their placement.

PS: This is not a request for suggestions the program is written and donated to our club there will not be any changes to the program. There are only two choices.:spin:

yak-aholic
03-12-2011, 09:33 AM
There needs to be a "I don't catch big enough fish to weigh in so it doesn't matter" for Ijuswannafish.

Racechaser
03-12-2011, 12:07 PM
So if we addopt the shuffle, and I catch a 5 pound trout and a 16" Red and know I won't place in the slam, I won't have the choice of entering it in the big trout category?

ijuswannafish
03-12-2011, 12:22 PM
There needs to be a "I don't catch big enough fish to weigh in so it doesn't matter" for Ijuswannafish.

No. You have it wrong. It is I don't catch big enough fish to place. Your problem is not catching fish.

snake doctor
03-12-2011, 12:45 PM
Yes, I would guess the computer is best -- provided the calculation algorithm is correct/fair and the optimized category matching occurs after all the fish are included in the count.

I do kinda like the poker hand strategy of placing my own fish though. It makes things a little more random and fun.

Yak-a-Lou
03-12-2011, 02:04 PM
Correct me if I'm mistaken but using the computer makes it true that being the last person in line and looking at the standings is no longer an advantage.

I don't like the idea of those who are near the end of the line having an advantage over anyone else. I'd prefer to see a fair and even shake for all participants.

Am I missing something???

pistol
03-12-2011, 02:27 PM
I would like to see a demo.

theoldcaster
03-12-2011, 02:47 PM
No mater how much you test something you never know it's true value until it is used in live fire, but this program is billed to do what we want and speed the process so everyone can have more time to enjoy the evening, so it seems to be just what me need, I vote that we put it under the gun and if it does not work out, we will change back!

Racechaser
03-12-2011, 02:59 PM
Correct me if I'm mistaken but using the computer makes it true that being the last person in line and looking at the standings is no longer an advantage.

I don't like the idea of those who are near the end of the line having an advantage over anyone else. I'd prefer to see a fair and even shake for all participants.

Am I missing something???

I'm wondering the opposite. If you are one of first people to enter, and the computer doesn't know how the other people did in general, how can it tell you whether your fish should be in the slam or separate until you have a little bit of data to compare it.

swamppro
03-12-2011, 03:07 PM
Will the software move your entry around throughout the weighin?


swamppro mobilized!!!!

theoldcaster
03-12-2011, 03:52 PM
BOY REV, SHOULD HAVE STAYED HERE FOR THIS ONE! I do not know much about the program, but it is my understanding that it recalculates each time an entry is made and places your fish in the most rewarding position! If it did not make the changes for you, what purpose would the program serve?

Racechaser
03-12-2011, 04:15 PM
BOY REV, SHOULD HAVE STAYED HERE FOR THIS ONE! I do not know much about the program, but it is my understanding that it recalculates each time an entry is made and places your fish in the most rewarding position! If it did not make the changes for you, what purpose would the program serve?

I don't know anything about it either. But it SOUNDED like it suggested where to enter it.

marshdaddy
03-12-2011, 04:52 PM
If it's an Excel spreadsheet, I imagine you enter the weight of each fish in each category, and the program gives the total weight in order of the most heavy to the lightest and the same for each fish category.

GreenWave
03-12-2011, 05:06 PM
BOY REV, SHOULD HAVE STAYED HERE FOR THIS ONE! I do not know much about the program, but it is my understanding that it recalculates each time an entry is made and places your fish in the most rewarding position! If it did not make the changes for you, what purpose would the program serve?

Exactly. That will end up being a fairly complex spreadsheet, but probably child's play for some of the geniuses we have around here. :buttrock:

bwilson
03-12-2011, 05:16 PM
what the heck, give it a shot

theoldcaster
03-12-2011, 05:30 PM
It is a program already in use by others!

GreenWave
03-12-2011, 06:12 PM
Wait a second. First you don't know much about the program. Now you're Bill freakin' Gates!

Heck, I agree. Let's give it a shot.

theoldcaster
03-12-2011, 06:17 PM
I picked up the high points at the board meeting! I have repeated what I understood it to do, but I do good to log onto the forum, so don"t depend on me! :hide:

Speckled_Tiger
03-12-2011, 06:55 PM
What other organizations have used it? Can we hear their feedback?

theoldcaster
03-12-2011, 07:03 PM
Once I worked out the calculation algorithm for it,I ask several clubs on the east coast to run it trough a year of testing and all them report that my calculations were perfect!
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
OK, OK, I don't know, someone told Rev. about it and he did the research!

What the heck, you never catch anything anyway!

Speckled_Tiger
03-12-2011, 07:19 PM
Maybe we can make up a list of hypothetical entries and put it on display at the meeting

revredfish
03-12-2011, 07:48 PM
Correct me if I'm mistaken but using the computer makes it true that being the last person in line and looking at the standings is no longer an advantage.

I don't like the idea of those who are near the end of the line having an advantage over anyone else. I'd prefer to see a fair and even shake for all participants.

Am I missing something???

That is correct the computer is constantly rerating yoru fish and sorting them for your best payout. Slam first, then breaking them up. As I understand it you can weigh in your top fish and your second place fish to get your "shuffle".

revredfish
03-12-2011, 07:51 PM
The program has been tested by a number of the computer literate in our club.

I do not believe it is in use by others yet - but will be soon.

Valveguy and All_in are going to be running the thing so you can talk to them about a demo. At the end of the day not using this favors those with experience.

valvguy1
03-12-2011, 07:52 PM
I'm wondering the opposite. If you are one of first people to enter, and the computer doesn't know how the other people did in general, how can it tell you whether your fish should be in the slam or separate until you have a little bit of data to compare it.


I've worked with the program and talked with the author.

Basically it's program written in C++.

First, someone assigns a dollar value to each of the different categories. That is what the program's logic uses to "place" your fish in the most advantageous position to win the most "money".

When people weigh fish...... the program automatically analyzes ALL entries and "shuffles" everyone towards their best chance to win the prize with the highest monetary value.

It is possible that you could be leading in one category........ say..... Leopard Red and say forth in Slam...... because the Prize for Leopard Red was a high dollar prize. Then someone blows you out of the Leopard Slam........ now that fish from your Leopard Slam would be recalculated and could "cull" the red used in your 4th place slam, thereby, raising you to 3rd or 2nd in the Slam. Not likely for 1st as 1st in Slam is most likely THE highest valued award.

Make sense?


There is a youtube video that explains the program. I could post it with the permission of the Club Officers.

theoldcaster
03-12-2011, 07:55 PM
I told them that, they just did not believe me!

Speckled_Tiger
03-12-2011, 08:03 PM
I would love to see a video demo. There are just soooo many variables, especially if you can win in two categories, that it seems like a recipe for disaster. I think the idea is great, but I think I would like to see it tested in a smaller live venue before paddle palooza.

For instance, your heaviest slam combination may not actually be needed for you to win the slam category. You might be able to sub your second trout to win the slam and your first trout to win the mule trout category. Would the program account for that scenario?

valvguy1
03-12-2011, 08:09 PM
I would love to see a video demo. There are just soooo many variables, especially if you can win in two categories, that it seems like a recipe for disaster. I think the idea is great, but I think I would like to see it tested in a smaller live venue before paddle palooza.

For instance, your heaviest slam combination may not actually be needed for you to win the slam category. You might be able to sub your second trout to win the slam and your first trout to win the mule trout category. Would the program account for that scenario?

Didn't specifically ask about that. I'll try it and see. One thing that is does do is print all the logic of how and why it made the decision.

valvguy1
03-12-2011, 08:32 PM
This might answer some questions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQlzy80-YFY

valvguy1
03-12-2011, 08:50 PM
Here's an example of the Detalied Logic



1st Place Leopard Red:
Winner is "Person 33" with 13 spots

Details on Person 33:
Standing: 1st Place Leopard Red, 2nd Place Flounder
Check In Time: 15:56
Red 1: 06 lb 10 oz, 13 spots (used in Leopard Red category)
Flounder 2: 03 lb 13 oz (used in Flounder category)
Trash Slam: 05 lb 11 oz
Max Slam Weight Possible: (06 lb 10 oz) + (03 lb 13 oz) = 10 lb 06 oz

ijuswannafish
03-12-2011, 10:32 PM
I think this would be a great idea if it works right. I am all for making the weigh in go smoother and quicker.

The only thing that I noticed about the program is that it needs something written in the program that says you must have at least 2 fish to qualify for the slam.

At 4:10 of the video he looks at the results and all were in the slam even though 2 only had 1 fish.

snake doctor
03-12-2011, 10:47 PM
Correct me if I'm mistaken but using the computer makes it true that being the last person in line and looking at the standings is no longer an advantage.

I don't like the idea of those who are near the end of the line having an advantage over anyone else. I'd prefer to see a fair and even shake for all participants.

Am I missing something???

In the past you would not have known the "official" weight and length of your fish even if you were last in line (although you could have weighed it and measured it on your equipment in advance). You had to call the category (e.g. largest slot red) and then weigh in. Remember if there was a tie then the first fish weighed in won the tie breaker (advantage to guy in front of line). So there was a little gambling element as to when to weigh in and what category to go for if your stringer or individual fish was close in weight to another angler. (This was the system for the last Fallin'Tide).

Choupique
03-13-2011, 09:05 AM
Well this way if your lucky enough to catch some good fish you don’t have to roll the dice as to where to place them now. My buddy got 6th place slam at PaddlePalooza last year; and those fish were locked into position in the slam category. This new program would allow the possibility of one of those fish to move over to an individual award since 6th dont pay I think.

Racechaser
03-13-2011, 11:52 AM
I think this would be a great idea if it works right. I am all for making the weigh in go smoother and quicker.

The only thing that I noticed about the program is that it needs something written in the program that says you must have at least 2 fish to qualify for the slam.

At 4:10 of the video he looks at the results and all were in the slam even though 2 only had 1 fish.

That is part of my concern. Will it move fish from slam category to individual category automatically or just shuffle fish in and out of slam category.

Will it INSURE that the angler is always protected to get the highest prize no matter what? If we adopt it, and in the middle of the weigh in we find that it hasn't protected a contestant, will it be overridden and the mistake corrected?

If that is the case I see no reason we couldn't try it. I just don't want to hear the "we voted" phrase and watch someone get hosed on his entry. Not saying that is the "norm" or has ever happened before, it is just my concern if no clear stipulations are agreed upon ahead of time.

MDR
03-13-2011, 01:04 PM
Add me to the "I have my concerns" bracket. Probably my lack of knowledge in the the inner workings of computer programs ans such that spurn that even though I recognize that there is no telling how much computer programs impact my every day life. I agree with the thoughts that if we do use this perhaps we should try it on a smaller venue first.
I'm also in the have other tourneys tried this and how do they like it? I know our guys have put a ton of time into this and I hate to dismiss it out of hand, but I still have my concerns.
I am also more of a purist so to speak. I think having the angler pick where his fish are going to go is part of the winning strategy. Kind of a two-tiered approach; catch fish, weigh fish. I wonder if the computer program doesn't make this more one dimensional-catch fish. It does seem to me that the computer program will do a better job of ensuring that prizes are awarded more evenly or more equitably, but it removes any thinking process for the angler. Is that a good thing? I'm not entirely convinced it is. Obviously the most important aspect is to be able to catch big fish and be able to catch all three species for the slam since without that it doesn't matter if it is human choice or computer choice.

pedalmedic
03-13-2011, 01:13 PM
My.03. Use it at a couple if small events, maybe some outcasts, so everyone can get the "feel" of it. I think any thing new at the pp with that type of payout is asking for trouble.

Racechaser
03-13-2011, 01:40 PM
Add me to the "I have my concerns" bracket. Probably my lack of knowledge in the the inner workings of computer programs ans such that spurn that even though I recognize that there is no telling how much computer programs impact my every day life. I agree with the thoughts that if we do use this perhaps we should try it on a smaller venue first.
I'm also in the have other tourneys tried this and how do they like it? I know our guys have put a ton of time into this and I hate to dismiss it out of hand, but I still have my concerns.
I am also more of a purist so to speak. I think having the angler pick where his fish are going to go is part of the winning strategy. Kind of a two-tiered approach; catch fish, weigh fish. I wonder if the computer program doesn't make this more one dimensional-catch fish. It does seem to me that the computer program will do a better job of ensuring that prizes are awarded more evenly or more equitably, but it removes any thinking process for the angler. Is that a good thing? I'm not entirely convinced it is. Obviously the most important aspect is to be able to catch big fish and be able to catch all three species for the slam since without that it doesn't matter if it is human choice or computer choice.

I also feel the same about the strategy portion. If an angler couldn't move a fish from one category to the another after it was entered in previous tournaments, why is it OK if a computer does it now. Is it OK now because it is easier on the weighmaster?

I can appreciate that to some extent, but it shouldn't change the tournament mindset. With this you can catch your fish, check them in, and leave and the computer is guaranteed to place your fish for you. I can see good in it, but then it is merely a big fish contest.

I am NOT a tournament guy right now. I fish the Tournaments in Leeville/GI area because that is where I enjoy fishing the most.

I plan on fishing the IFA tourney's this year. I have all three scheduled for vacation right now.

But this does not affect me the way it affects others. I am just trying to help discuss it so all points are discussed in length so no oversights are made.

revredfish
03-13-2011, 03:09 PM
Actually the angler having to choose their placement is relatively new.
Officers were becoming uncomfortable being responsible for best options for over 100 anglers so we moved to "individual choice 2 years ago). Then we added the allowance to place two fish last year (definitely too complicated to expect officers to figure this out for 120 anglers).

Now with a computer making the best choice responsibility would be on the computer algorithm. Just a for instance: If we had the program last year I would have placed fifth in the slam by .07 ounce.

If we were to do this we would also have everything manually backed up, each angler will have a handwritten receipt and all weights will be kept on paper in case of a computer crash.

marshdaddy
03-13-2011, 03:10 PM
If one category was all you could win in, this would be a no brainer.

ijuswannafish
03-13-2011, 03:17 PM
If one category was all you could win in, this would be a no brainer.

+1

Racechaser
03-13-2011, 03:29 PM
Actually the angler having to choose their placement is relatively new.
Officers were becoming uncomfortable being responsible for best options for over 100 anglers so we moved to "individual choice 2 years ago). Then we added the allowance to place two fish last year (definitely too complicated to expect officers to figure this out for 120 anglers).

Now with a computer making the best choice responsibility would be on the computer algorithm. Just a for instance: If we had the program last year I would have placed fifth in the slam by .07 ounce.

If we were to do this we would also have everything manually backed up, each angler will have a handwritten receipt and all weights will be kept on paper in case of a computer crash.

Will it move fish from Slam to individual category even if you have only one of a species entered?

valvguy1
03-13-2011, 03:34 PM
Regarding the "try it on some smaller events". That's not really a workable solution. This program was specifically designed for PP or FNT type events with fairly standard rule sets. PP and FNT use very similar if not identical scoring systems. Outcast event scoring is completely different and sometimes - not even decided until just before Lines In. They're just different animals and unique programs would have to be written for each. I don't think that this is something we can/could expect a volunteer to do for us for each event. I would suggest that we try to standardize our scoring for the big events.

We would still have to manipulate the program some, because......... the first set of cirteria is "what prizes are worth the most money". Someone has to input that info for the Logic to begin it's calculations.

FNT had what - 3 kayaks. PP will be one. Leopard Red for FNT was a Big Deal. For PP it will be the least significant of the top level prizes.

valvguy1
03-13-2011, 03:39 PM
Will it move fish from Slam to individual category even if you have only one of a species entered?

Sorry Scott -brain dead maybe........ I don;t follow.

yak-aholic
03-13-2011, 04:03 PM
Not sure I'm right, but If I understand the rules correctly you have to have at least 2 species to qualify for the slam division, all 3 species gets you an extra pound. Does the program account for a single fish entered being shifted out of the slam category?

Racechaser
03-13-2011, 04:11 PM
Not sure I'm right, but If I understand the rules correctly you have to have at least 2 species to qualify for the slam division, all 3 species gets you an extra pound. Does the program account for a single fish entered being shifted out of the slam category?

Exactly

Reel Tachy Fishing
03-13-2011, 04:13 PM
This is making my head hurt.....I have enough trouble trying to catch the fish.......lol

Speckled_Tiger
03-13-2011, 04:54 PM
Perhaps these issues are also way very few tournaments outside of ours have both Cajun slam and individual fish categories. I also think that we should pass on using it before paddle palooza simply because there seems to be some that enjoy the strategy portion of the weigh in, and this major rule change, if adopted, was not announced prior to payment.

yak-aholic
03-13-2011, 04:57 PM
That might be a good idea ST. I'm not fishing PP8 at all, but I would agree that throwing a wrench in it just 2 weeks prior to the event might not be a good idea.

ijuswannafish
03-13-2011, 05:00 PM
FNT had what - 3 kayaks. PP will be one. Leopard Red for FNT was a Big Deal. For PP it will be the least significant of the top level prizes.

To correct you there will be 2 kayaks at PP8. A Hobie quest and whatever Backpacker is donating. One of these is for the leapord red which means it is not the least significant of the top prizes.



Perhaps these issues are also way very few tournaments outside of ours have both Cajun slam and individual fish categories. I also think that we should pass on using it before paddle palooza simply because there seems to be some that enjoy the strategy portion of the weigh in, and this major rule change, if adopted, was not announced prior to payment.

Good point ST

revredfish
03-13-2011, 05:16 PM
Will it move fish from Slam to individual category even if you have only one of a species entered?
Then its not a slam in the first place.

yak-aholic
03-13-2011, 05:19 PM
I think that's the point Rev... If it's not a slam, it shouldn't be in the slam category

revredfish
03-13-2011, 05:20 PM
That might be a good idea ST. I'm not fishing PP8 at all, but I would agree that throwing a wrench in it just 2 weeks prior to the event might not be a good idea.

Not really defending here because we're just checking interest at the moment but this isn't spur of the moment. The officers have been reviewing this program for 2 months.

I think it is important to note that if this was a vote (which it isn't - it is just a poll) it would be 25-7. So of 120 folks 80+ don't care, 25 like the computer idea, 7 don't.

This computer option has been requested for two years - its very existence is in response to the request of participants in events past.

ijuswannafish
03-13-2011, 05:23 PM
Some of us have not voted because we need more information to make a decision. That is why there are all of the questions and concerns.



Will it move fish from Slam to individual category even if you have only one of a species entered?

I think what he means is if you only weighed one red, trout, or flounder, in the tournament, and have a slam, will it move the fish out of the slam category if it will help you place in the single fish category.

GreenWave
03-13-2011, 06:04 PM
I think that's the point Rev... If it's not a slam, it shouldn't be in the slam category

+1

A big trout and a big red isn't a slam. It's a big trout and a big red, and should be entered in those categories. I'm not sure why we're even messing around with the 1 lb bonus thing. (I know that's been around for at least a couple of years too, just sayin').

I believe the scoring would be made simpler, fairer, and truer to the spirit of the "slam" if we were to rule that a slam is one each of trout, redfish and flounder, period. To rule out unclaimed prizes, we could allow 2 fish entries to be considered, but they would be trumped by all legal complete slams, regardless of weight.

I imagine it may be too late in the game to consider such a change for PP8. If so, no problem. I'd like to propose it for FNT and beyond.

My apologies if I've chosen the wrong thread for this suggestion.

revredfish
03-13-2011, 06:06 PM
OK I've been straightened out apparently at the 4 minute mark in the video there are folks with "1 fish slams". Valveguy is this just an example or do we need to make sure the program knows there must be two fish for there to be a slam?

Speckled_Tiger
03-13-2011, 06:58 PM
A few more questions/scenarios.

if an angler weighs in two fish of each species will this program calculate which fish to combine and which fish to leave as individual to give the angler the best two prizes?

Here's an unlikely but very plausible scenario. Under current rules you only need two fish for a slam. Let's say an angler catches a 6 lb trout, 7 lb red and a 3 lb flounder. If 13 lbs would be enough to win the slam, will the computer recognize this and hold out the flounder to win a prize in that individual category?

revredfish
03-13-2011, 07:10 PM
A few more questions/scenarios.

if an angler weighs in two fish of each species will this program calculate which fish to combine and which fish to leave as individual to give the angler the best two prizes?

Here's an unlikely but very plausible scenario. Under current rules you only need two fish for a slam. Let's say an angler catches a 6 lb trout, 7 lb red and a 3 lb flounder. If 13 lbs would be enough to win the slam, will the computer recognize this and hold out the flounder to win a prize in that individual category?

I doubt it; however, if you were selecting for yourself you would have absolutely no knowledge of this fact nor of the competing flounders weights so such a decision would be foolish in the extreme. The idea here isn't exactly to make sure you win the absolute most possible prizes so much as to make sure you don't move yourself out of prize contention all together.

Speckled_Tiger
03-13-2011, 07:40 PM
The grand isle speckled trout rodeo has a simple way of fixing that issue. The keep a running leader board with cardboard and markers. If this program will not guarantee the best possible outcome, I see no reason to change from what we do now. It may fix a few problems but it has the potential to create many more. If weigh in causes this much confusion, maybe it's time to revaluate even having the slam category. It was great and fun and accomplishable when we had 30-50 in each tourney but it's proving to be an administrative nightmare with 100+ entries.

Curious, how many of the 250 or so anglers that participated in PP and FNT last year were actually negatively affected by having to choose their own category?

revredfish
03-13-2011, 07:49 PM
Don't know the answer to that but of the 50 who won prizes I know of several. I would suspect approaching 10% of the total.

revredfish
03-13-2011, 07:50 PM
BTW - thanks for all the good comments guys. I know I was just running a poll originally but the input has clarified a number of issues an I am grateful.

Choupique
03-13-2011, 08:09 PM
We have ALWAYS sorted out the best fish for the best prizes since PP3 - to PP6 ONLY last year did we start doing the pick your category. So guys saying "why all the change now" aren’t knowing the history of the weigh-ins. Calculations by hand are two time consuming as the club grew as why we moved to the other system of picking your place. Problem is with the new system you will always have something like a 6th place slam full of great fish walk away with ZIP, and other guys who entered their fish in the individual placings (and not the slam for fear his fish weren’t big enough in the first place) take better prizes than there fish deserved. Or a guy with a first place red paired with any of the 12" trout that be managed to catch would have won 3rd slam or better. In the long run it just makes everybody who enters the slam want to sand bag till the last moment before the buzzer to see what the field has played in so far. This is a fishing tournament; not a roulette game. It doesn’t matter either way for me; i actually like my odds better when you guys are too gun shy to put your fish in the slam, but I would like to see the best fish win the prizes. And guys who caught great fish not left out by one bad decision after a day of making all the right fishing decisions.

Stevo
03-13-2011, 08:11 PM
I'm the author of the program. Yall have pointed out some very good scenarios. I realize that it's not perfect yet, but the issues that were found are easy to correct. Specifically these two:


I think this would be a great idea if it works right. I am all for making the weigh in go smoother and quicker.

The only thing that I noticed about the program is that it needs something written in the program that says you must have at least 2 fish to qualify for the slam.

At 4:10 of the video he looks at the results and all were in the slam even though 2 only had 1 fish.

and


if an angler weighs in two fish of each species will this program calculate which fish to combine and which fish to leave as individual to give the angler the best two prizes?

Here's an unlikely but very plausible scenario. Under current rules you only need two fish for a slam. Let's say an angler catches a 6 lb trout, 7 lb red and a 3 lb flounder. If 13 lbs would be enough to win the slam, will the computer recognize this and hold out the flounder to win a prize in that individual category?

How about I address these two issues and post a copy of the program online sometime tomorrow so that anyone who is interested can test it out? Would anyone be interested in that?

Speckled_Tiger
03-13-2011, 08:15 PM
As someone else already suggested, if we go to a one prize per angler policy, it takes a lot of the variables out of the equation. An angler would then simply turn in their largest fish of each species and let the computer take over from there.

ijuswannafish
03-13-2011, 09:13 PM
How about I address these two issues and post a copy of the program online sometime tomorrow so that anyone who is interested can test it out? Would anyone be interested in that?

That sounds like a great idea. This way those of us who have issues, or questions, could test our theories and give feedback.

valvguy1
03-13-2011, 09:18 PM
I'm the author of the program. Yall have pointed out some very good scenarios. I realize that it's not perfect yet, but the issues that were found are easy to correct. Specifically these two:



and



How about I address these two issues and post a copy of the program online sometime tomorrow so that anyone who is interested can test it out? Would anyone be interested in that?

Hey Stevo - glad you're here. I learned some stuff I didn't know as well. I thought, in the past, anyone could declare even a 1 fish catch as their entry into the slam. So that 2 fish minimum was a good thing to learn.

The second quote above is a very interesting scenario and really ONLY would work with "shuffle on" (after the programming changes) or being Dead Last in Line at weight in and doing the math.

valvguy1
03-13-2011, 09:23 PM
Also I think Choup has a good point about the # of anglers and the complexity of our manual weighins. At some of the bigger Rodeos.......... if your fish isn't big enough to place on the board......... you just walk away and forget about weighing in. At our weighin.......... most everybody weighs in........ unless you're me and got skunked anyway, lol. So in the end even though they have many more competitors............ only a handfull actually weighin.

Speckled_Tiger
03-13-2011, 09:53 PM
I would love to play with a test version. It's actually part of my job to test our program from the user's perspective and point out the possible problems and scenarios; as you can imagine my IT dept loves me.

Blue in Green
03-13-2011, 10:55 PM
There's simply too much risk that the fish placing software becomes self aware.

Choupique
03-14-2011, 07:32 AM
Lollolilololol!!!!

revredfish
03-14-2011, 07:41 AM
There's simply too much risk that the fish placing software becomes self aware.

I almost pointed out at the beginning that the software does not have a name!

IMHO - I don't think we let the software determine the rules of the tournament. If stevo can trouble shoot the variables we can maintain our best event scenario.

Stevo, I have one other scenario that I'm concerned about. We allow the leopard red to be a bull red - so if someone enters one and it gets bumped out we need to make sure it doensn't bounce back into the slam category. I guess a mannual solution would be to enter its weight as 0. I am also assuming the program can factor in both the number of spots of the red and the weight?

Stevo
03-14-2011, 09:04 AM
Stevo, I have one other scenario that I'm concerned about. We allow the leopard red to be a bull red - so if someone enters one and it gets bumped out we need to make sure it doensn't bounce back into the slam category. I guess a mannual solution would be to enter its weight as 0. I am also assuming the program can factor in both the number of spots of the red and the weight?

Yes, you can enter both weight and spots for each red. That would be the best way to handle it.

yak-aholic
03-14-2011, 10:09 AM
As to entering both weight and spots for a red, in red and slam categories, redfish must be between 16-27 but there is no max size for leopard red. A leopard red could easily place in the other categories but not qualify due to being over 27"

Choupique
03-14-2011, 10:15 AM
If we did an entry for both spots and weight per red we should allow up to 3 reds to be entered. As one would be for SLAM and the others could be for potential individual prizes that are based on weigh or spots; neither of which could be best served by the same fish.

Sandman
03-14-2011, 10:39 AM
There's simply too much risk that the fish placing software becomes self aware.

I needed that laugh on a Monday morning!

Stevo
03-14-2011, 07:02 PM
Ok, here it is as promised. Download it from here:
https://www.yousendit.com/download/eURDb3BDd0kxUUN4dnc9PQ

Just copy everything in the zip file to the desktop or wherever you want to run it from.
Run vcredist_x86.exe first. (This is a one time thing)
Launch it by double clicking Tourney.exe

There is a sample file named Test4.BCKFC with about 200 entrants in it. The results for "Blake Gill", "Pam Brierre", and "Connie Fink" are good examples of the program making the best choices.

Here are the recent changes:

I added a requested option to work in different unit systems. Pounds (decimal) is the easiest to read.
I added the 2 species for a slam rule and beefed up the ranking algorithm to check every possible scenario (as far as I know).

I can't find a case where it doesn't place everyone's fish in the best possible category.

Stevo
03-14-2011, 07:06 PM
I would love to play with a test version. It's actually part of my job to test our program from the user's perspective and point out the possible problems and scenarios; as you can imagine my IT dept loves me.

Ok, that makes sense. I was wondering how you spotted the problem from just watching the video.

yak-aholic
03-14-2011, 07:19 PM
Here ya go Speckled Tiger... Do your thing

Racechaser
03-14-2011, 07:25 PM
I think this would be a great idea if it works right. I am all for making the weigh in go smoother and quicker.

The only thing that I noticed about the program is that it needs something written in the program that says you must have at least 2 fish to qualify for the slam.

At 4:10 of the video he looks at the results and all were in the slam even though 2 only had 1 fish.


This is who found the mistake by watching the video.

Speckled Tiger is an engineer I think.

Ijustwannafish is like Larry the cable guy. LOL That why he deserves the credit for sure.

Speckled_Tiger
03-14-2011, 07:37 PM
My brother, tigerfish, is the engineer. I'm a production analyst (I check oil production reports for errors) but have assumed other duties because IT refuses to learn what we do on a daily basis and therefore can't write the correct programs without my input.

I'll "play" tomorrow when I can get on a computer.

Racechaser
03-14-2011, 07:42 PM
My brother, tigerfish, is the engineer. I'm a production analyst (I check oil production reports for errors) but have assumed other duties because IT refuses to learn what we do on a daily basis and therefore can't write the correct programs without my input.

I'll "play" tomorrow when I can get on a computer.

Oh I thought you were both engineers. Sorry to insult you like that then. You should have corrected me a couple of weeks ago. :)

revredfish
03-14-2011, 08:28 PM
Ok, here it is as promised. Download it from here:
https://www.yousendit.com/download/eURDb3BDd0kxUUN4dnc9PQ

Just copy everything in the zip file to the desktop or wherever you want to run it from.
Run vcredist_x86.exe first. (This is a one time thing)
Launch it by double clicking Tourney.exe

There is a sample file named Test4.BCKFC with about 200 entrants in it. The results for "Blake Gill", "Pam Brierre", and "Connie Fink" are good examples of the program making the best choices.

Here are the recent changes:

I added a requested option to work in different unit systems. Pounds (decimal) is the easiest to read.
I added the 2 species for a slam rule and beefed up the ranking algorithm to check every possible scenario (as far as I know).

I can't find a case where it doesn't place everyone's fish in the best possible category.

Darn your good. We are going to run the program in the background at PaddlePalooza. The rules will remain the same the angler must choose his/her placing just as the written rules proclaim. However, once we see it's work in the field this will become our process for FNT.

Beat it up work it over - get 'er right. I'm really impressed with the work Stevo has done and is doing. ON behalf of the whole board - THANK YOU

yak-aholic
03-14-2011, 08:29 PM
If we did an entry for both spots and weight per red we should allow up to 3 reds to be entered. As one would be for SLAM and the others could be for potential individual prizes that are based on weigh or spots; neither of which could be best served by the same fish.

While not very likely, I could see a 26-3/4" red weighing 10 lbs. with 18 spots potentially being the best fish for all three possible entries. If you have a nice sow trout and doormat flounder, you would likely enter the fish in the slam because the prize is the greatest. No flounder and trout, no problem enter it in the redfish category. On the other hand 18 spots could very easily win the leopard category and that prize is typically greater than any of the single fish categories.

Choupique
03-14-2011, 08:39 PM
"so whats the chances of a guy like you and a girl like me getting together"
"like 1 in 10, 1 in 100.."
"more like 1 in a Million"
*slowly cracks a smile... * "so your telling me there is a chance! YESS!"

theoldcaster
03-14-2011, 08:42 PM
Sure seems to me like we make thinks harder that they need to be!

jpoucher
03-14-2011, 08:52 PM
"so whats the chances of a guy like you and a girl like me getting together"
"like 1 in 10, 1 in 100.."
"more like 1 in a Million"
*slowly cracks a smile... * "so your telling me there is a chance! YESS!"
One of my all time favorite movies!!!

Stevo
03-14-2011, 09:01 PM
No problem, keep me posted if yall need any other changes.

Speckled_Tiger
03-14-2011, 09:04 PM
Darn your good. We are going to run the program in the background at PaddlePalooza. The rules will remain the same the angler must choose his/her placing just as the written rules proclaim. However, once we see it's work in the field this will become our process for FNT.

Beat it up work it over - get 'er right. I'm really impressed with the work Stevo has done and is doing. ON behalf of the whole board - THANK YOU

Love this decision

yak-aholic
03-14-2011, 09:07 PM
Sure seems to me like we make thinks harder that they need to be!

I don't know why I'm even replying to this thread since I'm not even gonna be there. Just feel like when working with a computer program, all variables should be included. Never know what fish could be brought to the weigh-in. There's a potential for someone to be very upset if their stringer would have won the slam, but got split up into 2 individual fish categories.

Maybe someone could produce the full list of results from one of the previous PP tourneys and those weights could be entered in order of weigh-in. I would think that would be a good "real world" test for the program.

yak-aholic
03-14-2011, 09:13 PM
Darn your good. We are going to run the program in the background at PaddlePalooza. The rules will remain the same the angler must choose his/her placing just as the written rules proclaim. However, once we see it's work in the field this will become our process for FNT.

Beat it up work it over - get 'er right. I'm really impressed with the work Stevo has done and is doing. ON behalf of the whole board - THANK YOU

some how I missed this post Rev. That's probably the best idea I have heard yet.

ijuswannafish
03-15-2011, 01:04 AM
This is who found the mistake by watching the video.

Speckled Tiger is an engineer I think.

Ijustwannafish is like Larry the cable guy. LOL That why he deserves the credit for sure.

Thanks alot buddy.


Maybe someone could produce the full list of results from one of the previous PP tourneys and those weights could be entered in order of weigh-in. I would think that would be a good "real world" test for the program.

I know he is my brother and I probably shouldn't agree with him but I do. I think this would be one of the best ways to truly test the program. You already have the data from the tourney just out it in the program and see what it does. I would even be willing to do it if someone could send me some tournament results.

Speckled_Tiger
03-15-2011, 07:09 AM
Didn't they use a spreadsheet at FNT last year? is that still saved in cyberspace somewhere?

Speckled_Tiger
03-15-2011, 08:10 AM
Ok...here we go.

First of all AWESOME JOB!!! This is going to revolutionize our weigh in process.

Now for my first question/scenerio. "Redfish 1" and "Redfish 1 Spots" represent the same fish correct? Assuming this to be true: it seems there is some command that does not allow these two values to be used to win seperate categories, which is perfect. But my question is, shouldn't there also be two other columes for reds that you just want to use the spots for. Say if you catch 4 reds, 2 of them are 26.5" so you would want to use them for thier weights and 2 DIFFERENT fish each have 15+ spots so you want to see where they land in the leopard category. Let's say you end up with 1 red winning in the weight category and one in the leopard category, if the weigh master puts the winning Leopard in the cell associated with the winning weighed red, it will kick out the Leopard because it assumes its the same fish and can't win two prizes. Make sense? This will essentially allow you to enter up to 4 reds in the leopard category but if I'm thinking this out correctly this is the only category that could possibly need that many. And since it's a quick count iit would not hold up the weigh in line. All other category scenerios can be covered by weighing you two largest fish of that species.

Stevo
03-15-2011, 10:07 AM
"Redfish 1" and "Redfish 1 Spots" represent the same fish correct?
Yep, that's correct. For any one redfish, you can enter spots without weight to just compete in the leopard red category, weight without spots to compete in the weight categories, or both to win the most valuable prize, whichever that is.

Ok, I see what you're saying, I was assuming that only 2 reds total could be brought to the weigh in. If that's not the case, I a column to represent spots only for a 3rd redfish. Nobody would enter two redfish for spots only would they? Since a person can't win two places in the same category.

Otherwise does the fish placing logic look pretty solid?

Speckled_Tiger
03-15-2011, 10:26 AM
I wasn't aware of not being able to win two places in the same category, if that's the case then only one additional column is needed as you stated.

I haven't been able to make it produce an incorrect result yet!! A few times I thought I did, then realized why I was wrong. :spin:

Also the description of placement is an AWESOME feature. There's no blind trust involved.

The key to this is going to be with the tournament officials double and triple checking the prize values. Is there a way to password protect the prize values once they are set? it doesn't have to be a hard password, just something to help avoid accidental changes. Heck even an "are you sure you want to change the prize values?" pop-up would work.

Another idea, are the results and decriptions printable in a log format for record keeping purposes? With us growing larger, this may be a good idea so that the tournament officials and winners can sign off on the results in the case a dispute ever arises. (like it or not, legal crapola tends to show up eventually when money/prizes are involved)

Stevo
03-15-2011, 11:36 AM
Whew, I'm glad to hear that the placement Logic is holding up. Thanks for all of this feedback.
A safeguard against changing prize values and a printable log make sense and would be very easy to add.

Speckled_Tiger
03-15-2011, 11:43 AM
I added a participant to the list and am just throwing both real and absurb values into the system so that the results are obvious to me. This afternoon, I'm going to test it out by forcing mulitple tie breaker situations.

When you get the test4.bckfc example file set up with the added "Redfish 3 Spots" column, can you please send that to me or post it here? Thanks.

Speckled_Tiger
03-15-2011, 01:03 PM
I see the time stamp only shows hours:minutes, does it also account for seconds? If not can it? If it only uses the minutes it is very possible an exact tie could occur in the system (especially with the leopard red category which is the most likely category to experience a tie). Also I notice the time stamp can be changed manually, can we make that so that it cannot be changed by a user and can only come from the computer time stamp?

yak-aholic
03-15-2011, 01:14 PM
Man!!! ST, you are on the ball.

My only "issue" I guess you can call it, is that IIRC, you are supposed to be able to enter 2 categories, but not enter the same category twice. In other words, the max fish you can weigh in would be 4. 3 fish for the slam category and 1 more to compete in one of the other categories. If I'm mis-understanding something and am wrong or this is already being addressed, please ignore my post.

Speckled_Tiger
03-15-2011, 01:22 PM
it's been/being addressed. To cover all possible configurations (I think) you can enter 2 trout, 2 flounder, and 3 reds (only two of which can be weighed, the third would be spots only). Obviously that's a lot of combinations to account for, this is exactly why the rule was changed so that it would be the angler's responsibility to place their fish. This program does that for us. So far it has addressed all of my concerns. The few that I have now, seem like easy fixes for the man behind the curtain, Stevo.

Lucky for me, my database at work has been down for most of the day and I can't do much without it so I've had time to play.

valvguy1
03-15-2011, 01:24 PM
I Also I notice the time stamp can be changed manually, can we make that so that it cannot be changed by a user and can only come from the computer time stamp?

I don't think we'd want to make that change..........

Time Stamp (automatic) is based on entering data. We've told people that they can arrive early...... get a receipt for time at dock and weigh in at their leisure.

Next question......... since we told people that they can arrive and get a "timestamp" at arrival at the dock......... do we have a mechanism developed to do that?

I haven't heard of a plan, but, there might be one in existence.

Choupique
03-15-2011, 01:27 PM
I think the rules allow you to "win" 2 categories; not "enter" two categories.

Keep in mind the old system is still being used at the tournament weigh-in that counts.

Cobia 1
03-15-2011, 01:35 PM
I really like this program, wake up go catch fish, come back to the launch check in, start drinking beer, walk around and look for the line, drink more beer, turn in my fish and let the computer tell me where to place my fish, drink more beer. This new technology looks pretty expensive, the cost of beer will be outrageous. Even in fishing contests, there will be no reason to make my own decision.
Ain't life great.

Speckled_Tiger
03-15-2011, 01:35 PM
I don't think we'd want to make that change..........

Time Stamp (automatic) is based on entering data. We've told people that they can arrive early...... get a receipt for time at dock and weigh in at their leisure.

Next question......... since we told people that they can arrive and get a "timestamp" at arrival at the dock......... do we have a mechanism developed to do that?

I haven't heard of a plan, but, there might be one in existence.

Ok that makes sense about needing a manual override for that purpose, but I think we still need to account for seconds rather than just minutes when the angler receives their receipt.

Time stamp machines can be found fairly cheaply on ebay, maybe leave one plugged in at the weigh in location? Now of course there will always be some honor involved that you actually stamped your own receipt but heck we can't prove you caught your own fish either so....

valvguy1
03-15-2011, 01:36 PM
Ok that makes sense about needing a manual override for that purpose, but I think we still need to account for seconds rather than just minutes when the angler receives their receipt.

Time stamp machines can be found fairly cheaply on ebay, maybe leave one plugged in at the weigh in location? Now of course there will always be some honor involved that you actually stamped your own receipt but heck we can't prove you caught your own fish either so....

+1

Stevo
03-15-2011, 06:19 PM
I see the time stamp only shows hours:minutes, does it also account for seconds? If not can it? If it only uses the minutes it is very possible an exact tie could occur in the system (especially with the leopard red category which is the most likely category to experience a tie).

The time is measured down to the second, there is some logic in there to make sure that no two times are exactly equal (even with a manual override) so it can always be the tiebreaker. But that's a good point, I'll display seconds to avoid confusion.

Stevo
03-15-2011, 06:22 PM
I'm pretty swamped today. Most of this is very easy and I should get a chance to add it in sometime tomorrow.

revredfish
03-15-2011, 07:02 PM
pace yourselves guys. Although we want to demo it at PP8 we have a great deal of time to perfect it for October 15th.

Speckled_Tiger
03-15-2011, 07:15 PM
No rush stevo. My office is doing some remodeling so I'll be busy moving files over the next several days and won't be able to try out any changes.

valvguy1
03-15-2011, 07:25 PM
I'm pretty swamped today. Most of this is very easy and I should get a chance to add it in sometime tomorrow.

Oh No Stevo.

That'll never work.......... you'll just have to quit your day job, lol.

Choupique
03-15-2011, 07:57 PM
FYI: Stevo is coming in from TX to fish Paddlepalooza... he likes beer :)

ijuswannafish
03-15-2011, 10:57 PM
FYI: Stevo is coming in from TX to fish Paddlepalooza... he likes beer :)

What kind?

Branch_Office
03-15-2011, 11:17 PM
There really is only four kinds of beer....yours, mine, hot and cold. I always prefer yours and cold! :yes:

MDR
03-15-2011, 11:25 PM
There really is only four kinds of beer....yours, mine, hot and cold. I always prefer yours and cold! :yes:

Now that is the Branch Office we have been missing.

ijuswannafish
03-16-2011, 02:48 AM
There really is only four kinds of beer....yours, mine, hot and cold. I always prefer yours and cold! :yes:

I agree Steve but some people are picky.


Now that is the Branch Office we have been missing.

+1

Cobia 1
03-16-2011, 06:43 AM
Those who are pickey drink their own stuff. I'm with Steve. Cold and yours is soooo good.

Stevo
03-16-2011, 04:13 PM
FYI: Stevo is coming in from TX to fish Paddlepalooza... he likes beer
Very true. As far as what kind, I don't discriminate. I like it all. :smilegrin:

Stevo
03-16-2011, 04:19 PM
pace yourselves guys. Although we want to demo it at PP8 we have a great deal of time to perfect it for October 15th.
That's true, in order to keep things simple, I'll wait until after PP8 to make another version since I'm sure I'll get more feedback there as well.

It can get the job done it's current state. If anyone brings a 3rd (spots only) redfish to the weigh-in, the work-around would be to enter the 3rd red's number of spots for the lighter of the 1st or 2nd redfish. That would give them the same result as having a 3rd (spots only) red.