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View Full Version : Brainstorming for Angler of the Year/Championship series for 2011



Glwlsu
11-10-2010, 09:22 PM
We need the help of all members to step forward and give us your idea/opinions.

WE have just concluded the angler of the year for 2010. Choup has won his second angler of the year in a row. Which is great. I believe he is one of the best kayak fishermen in Southern Louisiana. Having said that I have been talking about the clubs Angler of the year program. I think something is missing. When I look at the participation rate 71 out of lets say 250 members (28%) makes me wonder what needs to be done to increase participation. As comparison the Lafayette group had 49 participate out of a club of 70 (70%).

Let me know what the reasons are that you did not participate last year or what could be done to make it better.

Here are a couple ideas to kick around:

1) Change point system to something like IFA 200, 199, 198 down to participation 150
2) Add another tournament at Grand Isle in june/july and have it like FOGI with two
weigh -ins Sat evening and Sunday mid afternoon. One could fish Sat am, pm or
sunday weighing at any time. Could fish one, two or all three times.
3) Make last tournament more points than the prior five tournaments.
4) Top five to ten finishers will qualify to fish against the LKFC (and possibly other clubs) in a "Gulf Coast Club Challenge".
5) Possibly add FNT and PP into the equation somehow.

If you don't want to post here you can PM me.

In 2011 Tournaments will be ran by a "committee" that will be able to take the great job Fred & Quas did in 2010 and make it better for everyone.



But .. we need you input. Every idea will be taken into consideration.

Racechaser
11-10-2010, 10:48 PM
Well let me preface this by saying I only speak for myself. I would be surprised if more than a handful of people agree with me. Just remember that you asked.

First let me stipulate this:
I don't like the atmosphere that the tournament series creates in the club. It really aggravates me that everybody begins to lie about where they fish even a full MONTH ahead of a tournament.

The nature of my shift work does not allow me to fish in every tournament. This leaves me with little interest to fish any of them unless I am off, or enjoy the area the tournament is in. If I have to take vacation to fish a tournament I use one of thirteen vacation days and lose $120.00 in "built in" overtime. This not anybody's problem but mine and I have never complained or tried to change scheduled dates to help me. It's just that at $120.00 a day, plus entry fees, I could buy a kayak every year instead trying to win one.

Now how can it be improved? Here are some ideas that people may like.

Maybe change the points system so you don't have to fish them all. Maybe make it to where only your top 5 days go into the points. That may allow people who can't make every tournament to fish it. It seems to me that if you miss one tournament you are mathematically out of it unless you are a phenomenal fisherman.

You could also decide the championship with shoot out where the top 5-15 people fish a special Championship tournament with winner take all.



Here is another idea that is separate from the above one. I like this one better but it is more work and I realize that before you even start saying it. But it is a MUCH more interesting concept to me than what we have now.

You make it a season long competetion where your fish are weighed and measured and kept tally all year during tournaments. There would still be daily winners in tournaments like now. But you would keep a "virtual stringer" of your fish caught during the individual tournaments and whoever had the largest legal "virtual stringer" at the end of the year would win.

You could fish the last tournament and completely change your points around. Isn't that what's missing now? Everyone knowing that no matter what happens on the last tournament day, Choupique wins and Rev is in second. No offense to either one but the series was all but decided before the start. In every sport that has a championship series, the team with the best record isn't given the trophy. There is a playoff system that keeps it interesting and a bit unpredictable.

I realize it is more work to track info but just trying to think of something VERY different than what we have now.

Scott

Racechaser
11-10-2010, 11:00 PM
While thinking of ways to reduce the work of the virtual stringer concept, I thought of a few things.
Instead of a legal stringer make it top 5 fish in trout, red, and flounder. That would reduce the number of weighed and tallied fish from 40 to 15. You could further reduce it to top three fish in each category but there are pros and cons to that.

all_in
11-11-2010, 04:11 AM
I am all for tweeking the AOTY tourney to improve participation. But let's be clear that creating a multi-event tourney is a complicated process - and little changes can have unentended consequences, so it may take a few painful years to make it better. The one change I was going to lobby for when it came up was to reduce the points for paying to enter (BUYING POINTS!?!) and increase the participation points for weighing in.

IMHO the goal of a year-long, multi-event tourneyshould be to reward consistent performance on the leaderboard. I am all for adding a tourney to the existing series. If we keep the existing rule that you only have to fish 3 tourneys to win the AOTY, then people who can only fish 3 should still have a shot. W'yak and rev redfish only fished 3 tourneys but they still finished 2nd and 3rd under the current rules. Nothing is going to keep someone who fishes as consistently well as Choup from walking away from us mere mortals. We could have a professional division and an amature division so that I don't have to fish against the pros anymore...

I am against increasing the points for any particular event if it allows someone to win that one event and walk away with the the thing - this goes against the idea I expressed above - reward consistent performance.

Another thing we should all keep in mind (and I know GLWLSU knows this because of all the awesome Outcast Events he has set up) is that the tournament director and the people who help them are volunteers. It takes time and effor to put these tourneys on and the guys who do it don't get to fish as long as the other entrants so they are penalized for their service. I have helped and am willing to do more, but as this thing grows, it puts a stain on some of the harderworking club members - Branch office who does all the paperwork, the TD and assistant TD, etc. So, if there is to be a new mid-summer 3-weigh-in tourney then set it up so that 1) it doesn't kill the new TD and 2) make it so you get one tournament score from that tourney - either your rank overall or your best from any individual weigh-in.

As for ading FNT and PP into the mix: I think they have been left out because the prizes for those events are so big already that winning both of them and then the angler of the year is like piling on. So I am not sure that is the right move.

But I LOVE the idea of a Superbowl event - like the Gulf -Coast Club Challenge. We could host the first and then let it rotate after that. But since it is an invitational, you aren't really increasing club participation much, eh?

There that's my 2 cents. Remember, you asked....

Tight Lines

Gnatless
11-11-2010, 05:18 AM
+1 All_in I like the AOY format and agree we need to reduce points for sign up and increase points for weigh in. I also like a Gulf coast challenge that why I suggested a pro event with our fine new trailer. Invite them and they will come. Out cast are fun tourneys, AOY are still fun but a little more seirus, and pro events are nothing but hard core. Pick one that fits your liking, lets have fun.

all_in
11-11-2010, 05:31 AM
I agree with this sentiment - having fun really should be the ultimate goal. When fishing becomes work, I'll quit.
Out cast are fun tourneys, AOY are still fun but a little more seirus, and pro events are nothing but hard core. Pick one that fits your liking, lets have fun.

revredfish
11-11-2010, 06:28 AM
-3pts for participation - 3 pts for weigh in
-I don't think another event helps participation I think two things reduced participation this year:
*the oil spill
*IFA and Outcast are presenting new competition for people's times

-I think we should work hard not to have multiple club events in a single month which would likely preclude adding a tourney which would only stretch our base thinner.

-I'm not sure we should tweak the system too much each year. small gradual changes allow us to build on our model - this year should be almost thrown out the window in terms pf predicting growth - but for what the tourney is our participation rate seems pretty solid to me. Our tourney series events were often larger than IFA participation.

ReelThrill
11-11-2010, 08:38 AM
I like the idea of changing the points system to something similar like the IFA format.

who-yak
11-11-2010, 12:43 PM
"To many events in the same month may take participation away from the series."

That may be true, and if so, the question is Why? Answer the question and fix the problem,
don't eliminate other events as a solutiuon.

Simply put, multiple events in the same month are competition for a participant and his/her entry fee.
Less competition means fewer choices, fewer choices may lead to fewer members. I, for one, like the diversity
of all the events, their locations, and their formats. I, and anyone else, can currently pick and choose where,
when, and how we like to fish. Don't take that away as a solution to preceived less participation.

Competition breeds imagination, effort, and a willingness to strive for something better.
Competition is what we have when we have multiple events in the same month and that's a good thing.

Hobie1Kenobie
11-11-2010, 01:14 PM
I have not fished these events as yet but intend to participate in the series this year. As much as possible that is. My work schedule prohibits me from attending them all but if I am home this year I will be there.

This being my first year to fish the series I reserve judgement except to say that I think including Paddlepalooza and FNT is not a good idea. They should definately stay stand alone events.

marshdaddy
11-11-2010, 01:14 PM
I havn't fished the AOY series simply because I work most of the weekends that they are held. I try to arrange my work schedule to attend Paddlepalooza and FnT. I am also NOT avoiding any of the AOY dates just because I worked one or more of the dates and could not attend another. That wouldn't keep me from competing if I wanted to. To me, friendly competition is fun. I don't care if I am not in the running for a new kayak. I will still fish one of the dates just for the fun and competition. Fishing with friends and competing is fun. I don't have any ideas that will miraculously increase participation. After I retire, you might see more of me in the smaller tounaments, but for the next couple of years, probably only at FnT, Paddlepalooza, and the occasional time when I meet up with a couple of friends and members. I don't think Paddlepalooza and FnT should be included in the AOY series. If it were members only, I might think differently. But I don't think Paddlepalooza or FnT should be members only.

:buttrock:It's a great club.

who-yak
11-11-2010, 04:44 PM
Competition within an organization is not ignorant.
Competition within an organization is what allows that organization to grow, prosper, and achieve higher goals.

It is the catalyst that allows the cream to rise to the top!!!

I can't even think of a large successful organization, company, or group that doesn't have and promote internal competition.
Hell, I'm in competition every day with every other member on my sales team. And that team is in competition with every
other locations sales team. It's what drives us all to do better, not only for ourselves financially, but also for the benifit of the company.
My church has competition annually for the organist. So please don't tell me competition within an organization is ignorant because it's
what provides us all with better products and services. And, in our case the best turnys.

Or to simplify, would you also do away with the "competition" of electing club officers?
We could just put everyones name in a hat and have someone pick. We may get someone who does a great job, or
we may not, but at least we eliminated any competition. What about the turny itself?
I think there is quite a lot of competition going on there within the organization.

As I said earlier, if participation is down at AOY events ask WHY. Then find the answer and solve the problem.
It's not rocket science. However, eliminating other events is probably the easiest, fastest solution.

Eliminating competiton isn't the answer. If and when all the competition is eliminated and participation is still low
what have you achieved? NOTHING, other than to disinfranchise a lot of members.

I'm all for compromise and trying to work out dates that are acceptable to the majority of members FOR ALL THE EVENTS.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the AOY series is the most important series the club puts together and all other events
should take a back seat, AND NOT COMPETE, lets say maybe, THREE WEEKS BEFORE and 2-1/2 WEEKS AFTER.
If that's the case, no one sent me that memo.

Catch
11-11-2010, 06:34 PM
This year I missed all but one of the tournaments, and so you know the club wasn't slighted, I missed several of the local fly club events as well. And I'm an officer in that club (I think). So give my opinions a "weighted average".

- Agree with the comments not to include PP and FnT in Angler of the Year
- Agree with FishTaco we should have a Freshwater tournament (but then ya'll be playing to my strength!)
- Make the weigh-in earlier. Old folks like me can't wait until 6pm to weigh fish in or we fall into a coma.
- Avoid LSU home games with SEC opponents (U-La-Laugh-fayette is okay).

A long time ago, and not so far away, I used to be a pretty successful bass tournament angler. It's how I earned my nickname. But after several years I got weary of the competition. Don't get me wrong... tournaments are a lot of fun. But the money got to be too much, and it just got too ridiculous the way folks were behaving. When the fly club started, it was like a whole different ballgame. Those guys were so much fun - and still are - and have always been ready to share secrets, even put a newbie on their spot to catch fish. If there were some way to make the tournaments like that, that would be awesome. As long as money is involved, that's a tough proposition.

Musicdoc
11-11-2010, 07:07 PM
I really haven't fished enough tournaments to really offer any real suggestions to improve participation. I really dont think every club member has to fish tournaments to really enjoy the benefits of being a club member. When debating what should be done to increase participation, I do recomend taking Catch's advice... We should remember to keep it fun! In my opinion, by keeping things simple, we will encourage more participation. I too have seen perfectly amiable guys turn from Dr. Jekyll to Mr. Hyde when the focus was on the "big payout" and not on having fun. I think that's why I like the Outcast format. It's not that I don't like the serious format, heck, I'll use any excuse to get on the water. I hope to fish as many tournaments as I can this year, not to qualify for angler of the year, but to have fun and to enjoy the company of others who share our passion for the sport.

bernmurd
11-11-2010, 07:30 PM
How about one that has a team format?

revredfish
11-11-2010, 08:31 PM
As I said earlier, if participation is down at AOY events ask WHY. Then find the answer and solve the problem.
It's not rocket science. However, eliminating other events is probably the easiest, fastest solution.

Eliminating competiton isn't the answer. If and when all the competition is eliminated and participation is still low
what have you achieved? NOTHING, other than to disinfranchise a lot of members.

I'm all for compromise and trying to work out dates that are acceptable to the majority of members FOR ALL THE EVENTS.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the AOY series is the most important series the club puts together and all other events
should take a back seat, AND NOT COMPETE, lets say maybe, THREE WEEKS BEFORE and 2-1/2 WEEKS AFTER.
If that's the case, no one sent me that memo.

Are we having a discussion or are we planning on shouting each other down? I'll assume discussion.

Primary reason attendance is down was a little thing called the oil spill. No need for major investigation there. Minimalist was set for a large turnout until a twenty year cold front came through. Redfish Rumble turned out just fine. PAC attack had a record turnout for any of the Tourney Series.

Now -nobody said anything about AOY being the most important thing- not one person. However, I don't particularly want our club run like a high powered sales organization either. Sink or swim is not the way to run a club IMHO.

Remember AOY brings in sponsors and our sponsors absolutely demand attendance and we as a club can talk about ways to do that. For instance the duel event at PAC had surprising results - but at the same time the two guys who did 90% of the work (not me) don't want to try that again. In general I don't see why we should be scheduling multiple events at the same time but since outcast is informal I guess they do whatever they like? No club input? no group decision for them? Only for AOY? Seems a little bit of a double standard to me.
I really think the competition illustration is not the proper way to discuss it rather it's the way that many club's try to avoid putting too much demand upon their leadership to pull of competing events. It's a stewardship issue - and a focus issue - most organizations that come off focus colapse.

yak-aholic
11-11-2010, 08:41 PM
+1 Rev.

I think we can all be civil here.

Cobia 1
11-12-2010, 06:48 AM
Ok Rev, you got my attention.
We have the lists of participants in each event, a list of members. Why not compare the two and see which members were lacking in participation. Take this new list, create a questionaire and send to the non participants via email. Review the results and then maybe some "educated" decisions can be made from the input of the non participants.
Example: don't tell me that the tourneys are too far, I drive from lafayette for them.
People have different reasons and these should be considered.
Another example, we may have members who are uncomforatble with fishing in torneys for reasons of failure of being scorned for a skunk, just saying.
I feel that this would give the club some actual background for why people don't participate.
I would be willing to work on this project to help us find out how to improve participation.
Just some input.

Speckled_Tiger
11-12-2010, 07:17 AM
hmmm, this is the 3rd or 4th cycle I've seen this club go through (most of these discussion happen every year...shocking example: some newbies will discover magnolia next year and will fill the boards with excitement and awesome stories, book it). Here's my biggest concern. I think encouraging increased participation is somewhat important, BUT focusing on it is not. "Build it and they will come!" Sometimes we just need to accept that things are what they are.

Like Rev said, the oil spill killed it last year for an unkown number of reasons (working in that field, unsafe fish being reported, etc). Toss out last year's number. Prior to that, we saw significant growth at each tournament. Let's see how 2011's numbers look before we think that participation is an issue. Also I think comparing LKFC's percentages is not a fair comparison. Getting 50-75% of 70 members is MUCH easier than getting 50-75% participation from 300+.

The ONLY thing that I think should be tweaked is participation points. I think you should get a big fat 0 for simply paying for the tournament (even if you intended to fish but some emergency came up, sorry thems the breaks). All participation points should be given for those that weigh in, even if you "weigh" a 0 lb 0 oz stringer. The point being, you fished the event.

I do like the "all-star" tournament against other clubs, I think that increases our network affiliation which can also be more appealing to sponsors (by sponsoring BCKFC they get introduced to muilitple organizations) that could help offset the perceived lack of participation in the BCKFC only tournaments. I think this tournament would benefit from an "Invitational Division" and a "General Division". Both would fish with the exact same formats but I think this would encourage people to show support for their club even if they aren't on the "team". Haven't both the LKFC and BCKFC been considering a joint event for a while now? I think this one might have great potential to be a third major event, and by using the committe format as already decided, it wouldn't add all the stresses to just the TD.

all_in
11-12-2010, 07:21 AM
+1
hmmm, this is the 3rd or 4th cycle I've seen this club go through (most of these discussion happen every year...shocking example: some newbies will discover magnolia next year and will fill the boards with excitement and awesome stories, book it). Here's my biggest concern. I think encouraging increased participation is somewhat important, BUT focusing on it is not. "Build it and they will come!" Sometimes we just need to accept that things are what they are.

Like Rev said, the oil spill killed it last year for an unkown number of reasons (working in that field, unsafe fish being reported, etc). Toss out last year's number. Prior to that, we saw significant growth at each tournament. Let's see how 2011's numbers look before we think that participation is an issue. Also I think comparing LKFC's percentages is not a fair comparison. Getting 50-75% of 70 members is MUCH easier than getting 50-75% participation from 300+.

The ONLY thing that I think should be tweaked is participation points. I think you should get a big fat 0 for simply paying for the tournament (even if you intended to fish but some emergency came up, sorry thems the breaks). All participation points should be given for those that weigh in, even if you "weigh" a 0 lb 0 oz stringer. The point being, you fished the event.

I do like the "all-star" tournament against other clubs, I think that increases our network affiliation which can also be more appealing to sponsors (by sponsoring BCKFC they get introduced to muilitple organizations) that could help offset the perceived lack of participation in the BCKFC only tournaments.

GreenWave
11-12-2010, 07:34 AM
hmmm, this is the 3rd or 4th cycle I've seen this club go through (most of these discussion happen every year...shocking example: some newbies will discover magnolia next year and will fill the boards with excitement and awesome stories, book it).

Speaking of that, shouldn't we be arguing about the rules for Minimalist Challenge by now? :hide:

Yankee Yakker
11-12-2010, 09:11 AM
Well, good points all. Worth a hardy discussion. Here is my 2 cents. Catch fish or not. I fish for fun. I enter the tourneys to learn something and meet new people that share my passion for fishing. The fees and dates are irrelevant to me. I will schedule my vacations around the dates.

Cobia 1
11-12-2010, 10:25 AM
hmmm, this is the 3rd or 4th cycle I've seen this club go through (most of these discussion happen every year...shocking example: some newbies will discover magnolia next year and will fill the boards with excitement and awesome stories, book it). Here's my biggest concern. I think encouraging increased participation is somewhat important, BUT focusing on it is not. "Build it and they will come!" Sometimes we just need to accept that things are what they are.

Like Rev said, the oil spill killed it last year for an unkown number of reasons (working in that field, unsafe fish being reported, etc). Toss out last year's number. Prior to that, we saw significant growth at each tournament. Let's see how 2011's numbers look before we think that participation is an issue. Also I think comparing LKFC's percentages is not a fair comparison. Getting 50-75% of 70 members is MUCH easier than getting 50-75% participation from 300+.

The ONLY thing that I think should be tweaked is participation points. I think you should get a big fat 0 for simply paying for the tournament (even if you intended to fish but some emergency came up, sorry thems the breaks). All participation points should be given for those that weigh in, even if you "weigh" a 0 lb 0 oz stringer. The point being, you fished the event.

I do like the "all-star" tournament against other clubs, I think that increases our network affiliation which can also be more appealing to sponsors (by sponsoring BCKFC they get introduced to muilitple organizations) that could help offset the perceived lack of participation in the BCKFC only tournaments. I think this tournament would benefit from an "Invitational Division" and a "General Division". Both would fish with the exact same formats but I think this would encourage people to show support for their club even if they aren't on the "team". Haven't both the LKFC and BCKFC been considering a joint event for a while now? I think this one might have great potential to be a third major event, and by using the committe format as already decided, it wouldn't add all the stresses to just the TD.

I agree with all that both you and Rev have pointed out. Some folks will join just to be members and never fish a tournament, that's how it goes. All points are valid and some time should be put aside at the December meeting to discuss.
I am still impressed that all members are contributing positive input, thanks to all for that.

theoldcaster
11-12-2010, 10:56 AM
Tournament participation should not be the barometer of the health of the club, only the interest of completion. After 40 years of competing in business, I have very little interest in competing in my chosen form of recreation, but I like some others will contribute in other ways, as in family days and helping new members. I make a point of staying in the tournament mix because I enjoy meeting other members and sharing there company and good times, and I will continue to support the chosen format, as long as we understand that the primary goal is to promote the ENJOYMENT of kayak fishing.

Racechaser
11-12-2010, 05:26 PM
Speaking of that, shouldn't we be arguing about the rules for Minimalist Challenge by now? :hide:
So can we talk about corks. LOL

revredfish
11-12-2010, 07:45 PM
remember the series is only two years old. and I am glad we are sharing ideas. it's funny in my vocational cirlces I'm considered pretty radical - but for the club I like to see incremental change - I'm in for some study and forward thinking. IMHO Vision casting and implementation shouldn't be done in 30 days.

yak-aholic
11-12-2010, 10:11 PM
I think I would be inclined to agree that while some tweaking may be necessary, we shouldn't jump the gun just yet. Let's see how things go through 2011 and maybe make a decision after that.

MCIII would have had a great turn-out, but that CRAZY cold snap caused some safety concerns. Due to that, the powers that be decided to postpone the date. Attendance to the "make-up" tournament suffered as a result.

Then there was the oil spill. With all that was going on at the time, I'd like to think PP was a HUGE success. IIRC we had close to 100 in attendance. I wasn't successful, but the tournament sure was.

As for the GCKFL CHALLENGE, (that's Gulf Coast Kayak Fishing League) I say go for it. Then maybe we can do a NKFL (National Kayak Fishing League) at some point. Kinda like the NFL, but with kayak fishing. And like the Bass Master Classic, we could have a Kayak Classic. That would be some crazy stuff.

ReelThrill
11-13-2010, 12:05 AM
So can we talk about corks. LOL

Can I dismantle my topwater and use it as a cork? Also want to know if garlic dip and glow is legal?

Racechaser
11-13-2010, 08:28 AM
Can I dismantle my topwater and use it as a cork? Also want to know if garlic dip and glow is legal?

Yes. But last year there was no topwater(or wasn't supposed to be) that was what sparked the cork debate last year with me.

revredfish
11-13-2010, 11:48 AM
"squirrel"

bonust pts to whoever figures out the reference first.

Razoryak
11-13-2010, 12:01 PM
"squirrel"

bonust pts to whoever figures out the reference first.

Guessing "stocking away" baits in a secret kayak hole.....not that cheating should be considered!

revredfish
11-13-2010, 02:00 PM
Guessing "stocking away" baits in a secret kayak hole.....not that cheating should be considered!

nope - pop culture reference (think kids)

who-yak
11-13-2010, 02:08 PM
Rocky & Bullwinkle? But I don't get the connection if I'm right.

all_in
11-13-2010, 04:08 PM
Up

How many bonus points?

pistol
11-13-2010, 05:23 PM
level the playing field with live bait

marshdaddy
11-13-2010, 06:34 PM
"squirrel"

bonust pts to whoever figures out the reference first.

Recycle

Branch_Office
11-13-2010, 06:50 PM
Lots of good points and suggestions. Sounds like we need to fine tune some suggestions and maybe do an online poll to really get good input from everyone that would read and post.

The Outcast was started primarily to be a little more relaxed / fun, allow live bait and trolling motors. There has got to be a good middle ground where all of these ideas and suggestions can come together and still be fun for everyone!


There were some issues with the waivers as well. The officers are trying to fine tune a universal waiver for the club and we are working on that now. At some point we may even need to look at purchasing some sort of liability insurance just to cya for everyone.

The meeting on December 2nd is going to be jam packed. Here is just a short preview of items on the agenda: Mayor to welcome everyone, CCA representative to speak, Coast Guard representative to speak on safe paddling, discussion on officers, angler of the year presentation by Pack and Paddle's John Williams, trailer display just to mention a few things. So, our time will be somewhat limited since Bass Pro will not stay open all night for us and members will have drives to make. That is one reason the By Laws were rewritten to allow us to conduct some online business and voting on certain things.

theoldcaster
11-13-2010, 06:53 PM
Boy, I am glad Bass Pro is close to my house!

revredfish
11-13-2010, 06:58 PM
Up

How many bonus points? .005 points.

give that man prize watch the movie up and you will get the gag - maybe

Gnatless
11-14-2010, 06:52 AM
One easy way to increase participation for MC and make it easy on the TD would be to not limit the participants by supplying the plastics. Just say each person can bring 25 of their favorite plastics and five jig heads. Hey we will have more people interested if they can bring their own special color. Come on TD just think about 60 participants with no begging and bagging.

Where Y'ak?
11-14-2010, 07:17 AM
Gnatless:

I like the current MMC format.

It puts everyone on the same playing field by having to use the same lures.
It expands your fishing ability and knowledge by forcing you to fish without your "comfort" lures.

I virtually never fish with jig/plastic tightlined. I was forced to last year for my first MMC. I did well in the tourney and if I can, anyone can. The format will make you a better fisherman.

Glwlsu
11-14-2010, 07:37 AM
I agree with Chris It's the reason for the "challenge" I like the format of the tournament and that is the reason for this tread we are not out to make major change but "tweek" what has been done with ideas of the past and build on it. I have not been in the club that long but believe that a each of the angler of the year events evolved from what curtain members wanted to fish and see how it came off. Think Rev gets created for PAC event coming about, John started Redfish Rumble, I know Choup had some dealings with setting up a couple. Not trying to get into any pissing contests but some ideas. I think the bonus points for showing up at weigh-in (even with no fish, guess we could name it the MUNG Bonus system) would get you extra points. Keep the ideas coming. Then we will try to consolidate all and throw it out there and see what changes we may want to make. I'm pretty sure the point system will change as it did last year and it's better.

Glwlsu
11-14-2010, 07:46 AM
Couple other ideas that were brought up on our "vacation trip" to Orange Beach.


Participation point 1 anyone that pays and no show. (could be work related etc)
Bonus points: sigh in at weigh in no fish weighed 4 points
Angler of Year used to "Qualify" for a Championship Event where all points go away and chance for everyone to win
Make the points be a total of 4/5 events. That way someone that can't make an event isn't out of it from start and then would decides not to fish the series.

Cobia 1
11-14-2010, 08:14 AM
I like that a "throw out" tournament. This would allow for the little things that come up, it's done in other sports.

all of this should be for good discussions, hope we can get all input discussed.

yak-aholic
11-14-2010, 08:21 AM
I too like the current MC format. Never know what you're gonna get. I almost always use a jighead/plastic tightlined and I sucked at last year's event. :shocked:

25 plastics:lol:I wish... more like 5. It's a cool little format and I don't think it should be changed.

theoldcaster
11-14-2010, 08:35 AM
With all the yaks we have a change to win, I think we lose a little excitement by giving away a yak for this, how about paying the entrance fee for the three Louisiana IFA events the next season.

yak-aholic
11-14-2010, 08:40 AM
I would think that's probably up to Pack n Paddle, since they're our sponsor for the series.

Gnatless
11-14-2010, 09:21 AM
Your right yak-aholic 25 is a stupid number but the point is to not limit participation by the amount of baits we have. I would even say donate money to the TD but let all the people who want fish come have fun. Maybe let us bring one of our favorites.

Choupique
11-14-2010, 02:05 PM
one idea I had would if the points won were for every placing in every tournament... bigger turnouts would garner bigger points. Similar to IFA were its one point difference between placings, but the events were more people showed up would be worth more, and the events were people showed up less would be worth less, like the event in Big Lake that a lot of people dont make wouldn’t do you out of the event cause only 15 people are there so only 15 points can be won.... (15 people event =15pts for first as you beat 15 people... 60 people show up to an event, 60pt to winner..... down to 40th place, etc. This of course makes showing back up at the weigh-in very important even without fish? I’m not quite sure how the skunks would be handled... maybe they would all split the remaining points down to fractional points if need be?) Anyway just an idea... It would also help people want to promote the events as the more folks you can get to come out the bigger the event becomes... Just a thought, I’ll throw it on the wall and see if anything sticks.

ReelThrill
11-14-2010, 03:19 PM
one idea I had would if the points won were for every placing in every tournament... bigger turnouts would garner bigger points. Similar to IFA were its one point difference between placings, but the events were more people showed up would be worth more, and the events were people showed up less would be worth less, like the event in Big Lake that a lot of people dont make wouldn’t do you out of the event cause only 15 people are there so only 15 points can be won.... (15 people event =15pts for first as you beat 15 people... 60 people show up to an event, 60pt to winner..... down to 40th place, etc. This of course makes showing back up at the weigh-in very important even without fish? I’m not quite sure how the skunks would be handled... maybe they would all split the remaining points down to fractional points if need be?) Anyway just an idea... It would also help people want to promote the events as the more folks you can get to come out the bigger the event becomes... Just a thought, I’ll throw it on the wall and see if anything sticks.

I would like to see a format similar to this as well.

GreenWave
11-14-2010, 08:20 PM
one idea I had would if the points won were for every placing in every tournament... bigger turnouts would garner bigger points. Similar to IFA were its one point difference between placings, but the events were more people showed up would be worth more, and the events were people showed up less would be worth less, like the event in Big Lake that a lot of people dont make wouldnít do you out of the event cause only 15 people are there so only 15 points can be won.... (15 people event =15pts for first as you beat 15 people... 60 people show up to an event, 60pt to winner..... down to 40th place, etc. This of course makes showing back up at the weigh-in very important even without fish? Iím not quite sure how the skunks would be handled... maybe they would all split the remaining points down to fractional points if need be?) Anyway just an idea... It would also help people want to promote the events as the more folks you can get to come out the bigger the event becomes... Just a thought, Iíll throw it on the wall and see if anything sticks.

I like fairness of the idea, but I'm afraid of the Law of Unintended Consequences on this one. The AOY title could easily end up being determined by the results of a small number of well attended tournaments (Redfish Rumble and PAC Attack come to mind). Other tournaments, especially Where Yat at the end of the year, could end up relatively insignificant. I think the current format keeps things competitive longer and helps promote participation at all the tournaments.

Speckled_Tiger
11-15-2010, 06:43 AM
I like fairness of the idea, but I'm afraid of the Law of Unintended Consequences on this one. The AOY title could easily end up being determined by the results of a small number of well attended tournaments (Redfish Rumble and PAC Attack come to mind). Other tournaments, especially Where Yat at the end of the year, could end up relatively insignificant. I think the current format keeps things competitive longer and helps promote participation at all the tournaments.

This was my first thought as well.

I like the idea of dropping your lowest value, so your final score is based on 4 out of 5 tournaments.

revredfish
11-15-2010, 01:51 PM
I suggest we maintain mostly the same formats for 2011 but kick all this to committee during the year with several more, as Choup put it, opportunities to throw things against the wall and see what sticks. I would suggest the committee have a report by mid-summer; we beat it up some more online; and roll it out by end of year.
and all of that is merely, again, just throwing it up against the wall.

We actually have a great deal of consensus on some things:
There's a love of all three of our formats - the Big Two tourneys, the AOY, and the outcast. I like the descriptions that have been put forward - I've learned a great deal there.
There's large consensus that AOY needs a points format change I think we can tweak that one immediately.
There's desire for innovation but right now I see that as being "all over the map" and that's part of why I think we need to do some gradual work to build consensus.

and

squirriel...

Razoryak
11-15-2010, 01:56 PM
You killing me with the squirrel!

yak-aholic
11-15-2010, 02:13 PM
I'd agree with what Rev said...
Don't make any drastic changes for 2011 except maybe the pay/participation points. Let the new committee play around with some ideas and present them back to us for vote to be implemented in 2012.

revredfish
11-15-2010, 04:04 PM
http://oddity59.geek.nz/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/up-dug.jpg

one of the best animated movies ever UP! great grab ont the picture. I love that dog.

Choupique
11-15-2010, 04:31 PM
The goal of the tweaks are to:

a) keep the series competitive through out the whole year?
b) increase participation
c) make it “fairer”
d) other?

revredfish
11-15-2010, 04:57 PM
that's a good list

all_in
11-15-2010, 09:17 PM
The goal of the tweaks are to:

a) keep the series competitive through out the whole year?
b) increase participation
c) make it “fairer”
d) other?

I not sure it is possible to do all of the above. Maybe making it fairer and keeping it competitve will increase participation; maybe not. I'm not convinced participation is going to increase tremendously all at once regardless of what we do. I love tourneys, and my fishing has gotten so much better trying to keep up with you. But I know not everyone thinks they are fun.

I think reversing the points for paying and participating is designed to improve fairness. I am too tired to look up the thread from last year, but I'm pretty sure the 5 points for paying was your idea (?) - if I remember it was to keep it competitive for people who had to miss a tourney. I thought it was worth a try, but the more I think about it, the more I beleive it isn't fair to allow folks to buy points. Some of us don't have the disposable income to throw at a tourney when we know we aren't going to compete - IMHO, a system that rewards based on a person's income (or punishes for lack of it) is not right.

Perhaps counting 4/5 tourneys will accomplish the same thing? It should help keep the thing competitive. But I really think that in order to win you will still have to place in the top 5 in 2 tourneys and be in the top 10 in the rest.

As I said in my 1st thread, a multi-tournament series is a complicated thing and it may take a couple of years of pain to get it right. But if we build a FUN series of individual events and if we make sure the series is fair, participation will grow with every year along with the membership.

Choupique
11-16-2010, 05:55 AM
I don’t think there was much use out of the "buying points" thing. Maybe just the banana brothers at huddle house!? I don’t think it made any difference to the outcome what so ever. I think we can certainly try things without it, we will just have to keep better records to prevent it from happening accidentally which is what happened the first year, which is why it was brought up last year. The dropping the lowest out of your 5 is an interesting idea and we can try that. Lots of math though!

As for making it more competitive, nothing we do will keep people from clinching the series towards the end of the year IMO. If someone finishes consistently at the top it won’t matter what we do. They will have the points above the majority and only a few will be in the chase at the end.

swamppro
11-16-2010, 06:07 AM
I say get rid of the buy in points and just do regular point placing. Maybe an extra point for heaviest red or trout for weighin as well? Just thinking out loud before I head out to get a wet butt in the east again! I got stormed on yesterday and it looks like I will be again today

Speckled_Tiger
11-16-2010, 06:52 AM
I don’t think there was much use out of the "buying points" thing.

I also don't think anyone ever set out to abuse the loop hole last year. I think you just pointed out that there was one. Big difference. This is the reason I think "particpation points" should be for exactly that, participating. This is why everyone needs to sign in for the weigh in. If you skunk and don't show for the weigh in, you forfeit the points. The rules, whatever they end up being, need to be strictly enforced imho. This helps to eliminate the grey areas. And knocking off the lowest score helps compensate for the "but I had to leave early for an emergency" excuse. Several times in the NFL the "best" team doesn't necessarily make it to the Super Bowl. If you have a string of bad luck, oh well. Come back next year and try again.

yak-aholic
11-16-2010, 01:41 PM
The dropping the lowest out of your 5 is an interesting idea and we can try that. Lots of math though!


I think maybe Valvguy, if he's willing, could come up with something to handle this problem. Just throwing his name out since he needs redemption from FNT (just kidding vg). I am sure there's something you can do in Excel to handle these calculations.

revredfish
11-16-2010, 01:49 PM
I think maybe Valvguy, if he's willing, could come up with something to handle this problem. Just throwing his name out since he needs redemption from FNT (just kidding vg). I am sure there's something you can do in Excel to handle these calculations.

all in and I have discussed this already - he's got the know how.

MDR
11-16-2010, 02:22 PM
I also like the idea of participation points rather than "buy-in" points. I doubt anyone paid for a tourney with the intentions of simply getting points, but it is a possibility with the format. I think I like the idea of best 4 of 5 tourneys counting to the final standings, but I cannot think of a pro sport that follows that format. The overall season performance is what, usually, decides who enters the playoffs. Of course the wild card system in place for most allows for a team with a more poor season record to have a shot at the championship. To be honest I'm undecided on that approach. I put more value in the "season long" record than I do a single game outcome. That being said, I also believe in the addage of a great team being able to beat anyone they play. How is that for a confusing opinion, lol.

I agree with Brendan that it is very likely that someone could have the title locked up before the final event. If that happens then it just does. I'm not sure I see changing the point system in a fashion that would eliminate that possibility.

Interesting idea of points per participants, but I'm not sure I am a fan of it. Scheduling aspects always has an impact on who can fish a given tourney. I would hate to see a guy that can only make 3 small tourneys, but not 2 big tourneys get summarily penalized for it. While there is something to be said for beating 75 guys instead of beating 20, I don't think a correlating point system is necessarily fair.

All in all some outstanding ideas and proposals. Great to see we can still have folks throw them out, allow others to comment without making it personal, and see what we are left with.

GreenWave
11-16-2010, 04:26 PM
As for making it more competitive, nothing we do will keep people from clinching the series towards the end of the year IMO.

Wanna bet? :yes:

I see bananas, gps trackers, road spikes, voodoo dolls and more in your future!